Some action with the ww1 version of 'Iron Cross' and 'Seven Days to the River Rhine'.
'1914' is early war stuff, so cavalry and not tanks. We did not get to try the cavalry rules here, though they have nice mechanisms surrounding elements which have to be 'reconned' before establishing where the main force is vs scouting elements, which is a nice touch, and might see some hacking if this scale (units are battalions) were used for a ww2 version in terms of armour.
Other differences (as noted) include the scale - where a stand is a company and moves as part of a battalion sized 'line' unit, as opposed to 'Iron Cross' and 'Seven Days' which are tank to tank.
Now in the past, great fun has been had with WW2, WW3 and Arab-Israeli War versions for these rule-sets.
Advantages there have been very obvious, in terms of act / counter-act for tokens and general excitement, and despite a lot of play and refinement of the ww2 version, we have found that ww3 play - with tokens, and nail-biting action - actually 'feels' like fast moving action in 1980s West Germany (absence of artillery notwithstanding).
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| Bekaa Valley 1982 action in 20mm with 'Seven Days'. This one was particularly 'down to the wire'. |
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| Action in West Germany 1985 - in 1/200 with 'Seven Days' |
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| 20mm WW2 Eastern Front with 'Iron Cross' |
Therein lies the problem for ww1; the units are battalions with MGs - moving essentially in lines, and though we still have the move - counter-move etc, there is nothing like a large Main Battle Tank to break the monotony of an advance or defence. Obviously, those are absent here, and so I did question the validity of the 'game' mechanism for this type of confrontation. It does make for drab gameplay as it becomes a game of numbers, odds, and staying awake.
Little nuances like the activation chit, and the d6 conversion for d10 hits, become a chore rather than a nail-biting line in the narrative.
'Seven Days to the River Rhine' for me, was the pinnacle of this design mechanism - it rocks along and is exciting - moving tanks, or revealing armour on the crestline, helicopter popups, infantry assaults at the infantryman level view...First World War feels regressive in nature due to the absence of same.
That said, there is still a game here, but with lots of add-ons for ww1 'fun', such as MG proclivities and large calibre guns, and battalion upgrades etc.- perhaps a stretch. For ww1, perhaps 'Field of Battle' might be a more viable option, with that system's degree of battlefield chaos lending credence to the difficulties of command, rather than attempting to graft a system based on 'gamey excitement' onto a level and period of conflict where it can not exist in the same context as the previous offerings of this system.
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| German MGs |
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| The objective - guarded by French units |
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| The French right flank, would fall to superior numbers |
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| Red trousers |
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| The German Assault |
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| The last French company - more red trousers |
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| Lots of command chits |
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| Excellent 10mm units on both sides |
Like the big bases.
ReplyDeleteWas the Arab-Israeli Bekaa Valley just straight 7 Days to the River Rhine or some sort of variant or adaptation?
Neil
heers Neil - the troops weren't mine but looked good - still not sure about the rules for other than mechanised though.
DeleteThe Arab-Israeli war game was here:
https://warfareintheageofcynicsandamateurs.blogspot.com/2019/09/bekaa-blues-1982.html
Now, it was based on the scenario in the old TableTop Games scenario book 'Battlezones' from the 1980s.
No changes to the main rules - other than treating Merkavas as sitting between Challenger 1 and Chieftain.
I am thinking of revisiting this (and the other scenarios) with 'Fistful of TOWs 3'
Must have missed that post.
ReplyDeleteDebated using Megablitz to cover the whole invasion. There's a really good boardgame that would work as a campaign system:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/129326/lebanon-82-operation-peace-for-galilee
Neil
That looks like a superb game/campaign guide. I'll take a look at that - many thanks.
DeleteNice looking Early WW1 game - I like the idea of scouting/reconning. How does it work?
ReplyDeleteCheers Jack - Now, we did not use the cavalry in this game, though I gather that the cavalry stands get used like 'tokens' - they might be recon cavalry, OR the actual full unit - the opponent does not know until they (1) engage or (2) they recon the uni to see what it is.
DeleteThat is itself seems like a nice game of out-scouting the second-guessing the opponent - which honestly would be a lot better than lines of infantry battalions vs lines of infantry battalions - the most exciting thing being to focus an attack on a single flank etc.
Perhaps it is a logical extension of the 'lions led by donkeys' myth of the First World War - cuz I definitely did feel like falling asleep in the sunlight ;)
It is interesting how some game systems don't stretch well to periods which theoretically should be in scope, but they don't actually work for. I hadn't realised there was a modern variant for Iron Cross, that does sound interesting and it looks like you've made that work well.
ReplyDeleteHonestly Martin, I think the 'Seven Days to the River Rhine' variant of the original Iron Cross rules was the best derivation. It fixed spotting, LoS, scouting, little vagaries in the rules, and though did not add (strictly speaking) artillery, it had card based fog of war elements - a little gamey, but tension adding.
DeleteThe best games we have played with this chit based activation that they have pioneered (let's call it 'over'activation) system, have been the West Germany '85 style games.
But, when it comes to lines of walking battalions, with inflexible MGs - with the system 'upped' in terms of scale for no apparent reward, nor adequate changes to the command system - it loses the simple dynamism that it had been written to find...
7 Days to the Rhine River is a great game here. The WW1 version was one to look at and it sounds like some situations might be avoided. Could you give the table a few tweaks in terrain to cut down sight lines and make recon parties more valuable?
ReplyDeleteYes, that would certainly have helped - though the scenario was roughly historical. I think there are a lot of East African scenarios with cavalry which this system would work well for, but the fast moving dynamic of the older system seemed to be lacking somehow. Scaling up squad/platoon based elements into company/line battalions, seemed somehow jarring as the nature and scope of the terrain also had to thereby change, I guess.
DeleteI see this 'scoping up' with the likes of Piquet/Field of Battle too, though I think it works there due to card driven mechanisms - the fast to and fro of the chit placement here just didn't seem to work as well, as when armour 'toys' are on the table.
Never been a fan of WW1 for miniature games. Very low level/skirmish trench raids seem to work (if you can field terrain) and only rule system I have seen used for higher level games is WW1 Spearhead which did seem to work for big encounters (Cambrai was game I saw at a show in 6mm).
ReplyDeleteI suspect the ww1 version of Field of Battle offers some promising gameplay, but still to check out. My preference would be Mespotamian/African or Middle Eastern theatre - Australian Light Horse / Lawrence etc. , where at least there are interesting scenarios, more akin to late nineteenth century actions, and where events can make a decent wargame.
DeleteAny years ago, I spoke to the chap who wrote Crush the Kaiser and was very tempted but real life and depression got in the way. Might be worth a look as an alternative. I’ve got a copy of the Rhine rules but all that chit stuff puts me off. Not as bad as Battlegroup, though, where victory depends on what number you pull out of a bag…
ReplyDeleteAgreed Jeffers. Somehow in Seven Days it just seems to click without too much Bull'chit' (see what I did there) - but there are design flaws elsewhere - especially in this one.
DeleteYes - I will took a look at Crush the Kaiser definitely. Also thinking the ww1 version of Field of Battle, might be just the ticket.
I have managed to avoid Battlegroup completely LOL...I have never been keen to put my hand in a bag...
There is also the latest version of Able Archer…
DeleteRight yes! I have heard this is floating about - do you know how i get a copy? Is it on the facebook group or similar?
DeleteYep - pop on to FriendFace and you can download it (it’s in one of the posts - about a month ago?). Needs the Reloaded books (1 & 2), though.
DeleteExcellent - have joined the groups - many thanks sir.
DeleteAn interesting couple of games. Never played Seven Days rules even though I have a copy, and an interesting challenge for the rule makers to transfer them back to a WW1 setting.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely Peter. (your latest star wars is epic by the way - I tried to post but google shot me down in flames ;( ).
DeleteI think the idea is perfect - for some reason, damned rules for all eventualities just keep getting in the way :)
Slowly, over a period of years, I have realised why 1970s designers adopted a strict turn sequence